Conservative Thought, Compassionate Spirit, Liberal Arts
A rose by any other name...
Published on June 15, 2004 By John Gilliland In Politics
Is same-sex marriage worth ripping America apart?

It's likely a question people found themselves asking during the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950's-1960's. But this is the only parallel one can draw between the two issues and remain intellectually honest. The Black fight for equality centered on perceptions and treatment based on an unchangeable genetic trait (skin color), while gays suffer discrimination based on an arguably chosen behavior (sexual liasons with one's own gender).

In Massachussetts, that state's highest court has ruled that gay marriage is legal. In dozens of other states, the same practice is illegal. Arizona, for instance, has a law banning these marriages that has passed constitutional muster there. Now, Arizona clergy are tearing into one another: pro-gay calling pro-church Catholic priests hateful and spititually violent. Bishop Thomas Olmsted has gone as far as suspending the last priest to keep his name on a pro-gay document called "the Phoenix Declaration", which declares that homosexuality is a state of being, not a sin. And in Indianapolis, Baptists have split, with the Southern Baptists leaving the World Baptist Alliance...tearing apart an organization comprising tens of millions of the faithful.

But what are gay's looking to wed their partners fighting for? In many cases, people opposed to same-sex marriage are supporting the idea of civil unions. These unions confer all the legal benefits of marriage on gay couples, but they don't officially call them married.

If one accepts that civil unions are the legal equals of marriages and are different in name only, then those fighting most vociferously for gay marriage are fighting for the word "marriage." Why? Do they wish to water-down the religious meaning of marriage? While some of the most radical gays might wish revenge against institutions they have traditionally viewed as oppressive, the majority of this peculiar minority are simply seeking equality in all respects...including being able to call their partners wives and husbands.

What is the solution? It's a difficult question, but the least disruptive and most feasible would be to eliminate the civil component of marriage altogether. I propose that no Justice Of The Peace be allowed to marry anyone...that they could only perform civil union ceremonies. Marriage, as such, would be reserved for religious ceremonies, only. That way, individual faiths could determine whether or not they wished to recognize same-sex unions. As it would be religious organizations deciding if gays could marry under the auspices of their organizations, any dissent would be limited and would not spill out into the general public.

In this manner, all sides win. Gays get legal equality with their married-straight counterparts and religious adherents get to limit the ise of the word "marriage." While this solution is certainly not perfect, it does contain the seeds of a solution to this thorny problem.

Comments (Page 1)
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on Jun 15, 2004
I want to clarify a few things. Civil unions do not give the same rights as full gay marraige. Civil unions only give the rights of the states, infact, there over 1,000 other rights that are granted under full gay marriage. The idea of civil unions was meant to be seperate but equal, but they are not. So there are two options either full gay marriage or the idea of civil marriage. What a civil marraige would be is a legal contract before the state and the federal government that says you are married. The reason for this concept is to bring gay marriage away from the church debate. Many people associate marriage as a religious thing with rights attached to it. A civil marriage would be a legal marriage without any church connections. That way the religious arguments can be thrown out. A civil marriage would be an act of government giving the rights that other people already have. So, no it does not have to be called gay marriage, but a civil is not enough to seperate but equal.

Here is a link for supporting information on why civil union is not enough
http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Center&CONTENTID=16762&TEMPLATE=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm
on Jun 15, 2004
The answer seems simple. Make civil unions enough. Simply change the marriage term the federal government and state government use to civil union.
on Jun 15, 2004
Copper, theoretically, we should be able to create an institution of civil union that offers the same rights as marriage. Furthermore, this institution should be available to all citizens who would protest the exclusivity of marriage. Until the same rights are provided to homosexual couples who would like to formalize their relationship, there is no good justification to deny them the institution of marriage. We need to get beyond our disagreement over the morality of gay sex, and ensure that 99.9%, rather than just 90% or 95% of the population, have an institution that will allow them to formalize a relationship with the person they love the most. The power of love is much more compelling than the power of hate, fear, or moral disapproval. As long as we make sure that homosexuals know that they are sinning and could go to hell, we have no further duty, and must let them live their own lives and make their own choices as adults.
on Jun 15, 2004
What is to happen to our society when we legally recognize the supposed "right" of gays to marry? What will happen next? Beastiality? Pedophelia? Will the courts recognize these supposed "rights" too? "Oh," some might say, "That's not gonna happen! That's common sense!" Well, what happens when common sense is no longer common or sensible? In America there is a phenomena called Judicial Activism. During the 1950's and 60s The Supreme Court, under Chief Justice Earl Warren adopted a philosophy of judicial activism. Rather than staying with the constitutional role of clarifying the constitution and interpreting its meaning as it applied to current situations, the Warren court took an active role in the legislative process and made law from the bench by interpreting the constitution to mean what the justices wanted it to mean, rather than for a position of original understanding.

Those who are judicial activists rule on personal whims rather than what is written in the constitution. They tend to dismiss those who practice the doctrine of judicial restraint as being out dated like the constitution. They claim that judges need to have "wide" views. (Which translates to leftist)

An interesting problem has developed recently in which a state judge in Massachussetts has allowed gays to be married. What's the problem then? Well, it's this:

Article 4, Section 1 states that "Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial preceedings of every other state. And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof."
Which means,
"All states must respect the laws and court rulings of all other states. Congress shall make rules that will ensure that this happens."

So the states, according to this clause, shoudl respect Massachussetss's ruling and make gay marriage legal.

Article 4, Section 2, Clause 1 states "The citizens of the states shall be entitled to all privileges of the citizens of citizens in the several states."

So, there is obviously a problem here. Since it is in the very framework of the Constitution it seems that the other states have no other choice than to implement the law. If the states were to declare it illegal individually judges would strike the decision down. It woudl seem that the States have no other choice than to call a convention to ammend the constitution, if that is what the states want. Only then can the activist judges not declare it constitutional, it would be a part of the constitution...
on Jun 15, 2004
I suggested calling gay marriages "rainbow unions" in my article "I solve the Gay Marriage problem"
Link which would include all the rights and privileges of a heterosexual marriage except that the Right can be happy with it not being a "marriage" under the eyes of God.

suspeckted



on Jun 15, 2004
Let's not forget polygamists. They should have as much right to marry multiple spouses as gays have to marry people of the same sex. After all, who are we to judge that humans can only have one love in life?
on Jun 15, 2004
Gay marriages should be called marriages only. If the marriage is leagal then why would you add another word to it unless you are comfortable with everyone knowing you sexual preference. Leagalizing marriage for homosexuals is overdue. I cant believe its taken this long.
Sincerly,
Believer in the rights of human beings, not labels.
on Jun 16, 2004
Well, what happens when common sense is no longer common or sensible?


Common sense will always be common and sensible. That's the beauty of it.
on Jun 16, 2004
If one accepts that civil unions are the legal equals of marriages and are different in name only, then those fighting most vociferously for gay marriage are fighting for the word "marriage."


It takes two to tango. While you suggest it's only gay people arguing for the use of the term marriage, to be intellectually honest you must recognize that there must be an equally fervent opposing side. If the word marriage isn't that important, why is the other side fighting so fervently against it? Or in other words, if the country is going to be "ripped apart", it's going to take both sides to do it, not just the gay side as your article suggests.

VES
on Jun 16, 2004
What is to happen to our society when we legally recognize the supposed "right" of gays to marry? What will happen next? Beastiality? Pedophelia? Will the courts recognize these supposed "rights" too? "Oh," some might say, "That's not gonna happen! That's common sense!"


No, because bestiality and pedophilia do not involve activity between consenting adults. There is a difference.

What are your specific objections to homosexuality and / or their right to marry?

VES
So, there is obviously a problem here


Judges are OBLIGATED to rule against cases that they believe are in violation of a person's constitutional rights. It could be argued and / or interpreted that the rights to life and liberty as set forth in the 5th amendment are being violated by opposing gay marriages between consenting adults, or creating laws preventing them. The check and balance to this is that the case can be reviewed by higher courts (state supreme court, district courts of appeals, and finally the US supreme court) to determine that actual constitution issue and need for redress. What is not commonly known is that cases which go before supreme courts are judged on their individual merit, and the decisions and remedies (if appropriate) are UNIQUE to those individual cases. The opinions of the courts are not meant to be blanket decision covering all such cases with an expectation that the states follow behind in unity, though quite frequently they choose to do just that.

For example, in Miranda vs. Arizona, the court decided in that specific case, the police should have advised the defendant of his legal rights so that he understood them prior to being subjected to an in-custody interrogation. Other states followed suit voluntarily because of the expectation that their cases would also be challenged and overturned by the court, when in fact they may not actually be overturned. The mentality is better safe than sorry. The court never issued a decree that all states must now follow suit. Consider a case going before the Surpreme court involving a defendant who is an experienced criminal defense attorney. Do you honestly think he would need to be advised of his right not to incriminate himself before he would know and understand that right? Or do you believe that the purpose of Miranda vs. Arizona to create a passage that must be mindlessly read to anyone who is being interrogated while in the custody of the police?

Also, I question your interpretation of Article 4, section 1. I will look into this, but my initial impression is that it refers to the concept that other states are obligated to acknowledge and abide by deeds, debts, civil judgements, leins, etc. I do not think that it means that if one state passes a law or has a ruling that withstands (or is rejected by) constitutional scrutiny, that all other states must follow in kind. If that is the case, that OBLITERATES the concept of states rights. At the very least, you are incorrect in the role you ascribe to congress. The article says "congress MAY" and you interpret that as "congress SHALL".

VES
on Jun 16, 2004
deleted because I was incorrect.
on Jun 16, 2004
The full faith and credit clause doesn't mean that every state would need to legalize gay marriage, but it is expected to force other states to recognize gay marriages performed in Massachusetts.
on Jun 16, 2004
Humanists have won the following victories in recent decades: the elimination of the God-instituted death penalty (which was later partially reinstated by the U.S. Supreme Court); from no abortion to abortion on demand (which is the indiscriminate genocide of babies); criminal rights now generally take precedence over the rights of the victim; gay rights, which are now greater than the rights of normal people; the sexual revolution with the right to do any perverted kind of sex among consenting adults (this has given “credibility” to such perverted groups as the North American Man-Boy Love Association, which advocates sex with little boys).

Since societial norms change with time as shown above, what makes you think that it will not happen. Children like myself are being taught that it's 'OK to be Gay'. But as each generation proceeds and dies off newer, more cutting-edge" ideas are adopted. The ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) fights for 'rights' such as flag burning, removing monuments, suing the Salvation Army for being a Christian Organization, and0 lawsuits against the Patriot Act. Some of Us would believe the ACLU hasn't got ACLUE... but, anyways... So if, with every generation, the morality of people degenerated further and further.. It's not unbelieveable, at least in my mind, for this to happen.

Step by step these groups are softening the public opinion of their acts with television, film, editorials, and Literature. People are falling prey to it. And, eventually, people will be asking, "What's wrong with that?" or "I don't see a problem with that!" and finally, "Everyone is doing it!"
on Jun 16, 2004
No, because bestiality and pedophilia do not involve activity between consenting adults. There is a difference.


Beastiality does involve activity of a consenting adult. No one is harmed in the process. Let them marry their sheep and take that tax deduction.
on Jun 16, 2004
But you avoid the issue of Pedophilia... why?
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