Conservative Thought, Compassionate Spirit, Liberal Arts
A rose by any other name...
Published on June 15, 2004 By John Gilliland In Politics
Is same-sex marriage worth ripping America apart?

It's likely a question people found themselves asking during the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950's-1960's. But this is the only parallel one can draw between the two issues and remain intellectually honest. The Black fight for equality centered on perceptions and treatment based on an unchangeable genetic trait (skin color), while gays suffer discrimination based on an arguably chosen behavior (sexual liasons with one's own gender).

In Massachussetts, that state's highest court has ruled that gay marriage is legal. In dozens of other states, the same practice is illegal. Arizona, for instance, has a law banning these marriages that has passed constitutional muster there. Now, Arizona clergy are tearing into one another: pro-gay calling pro-church Catholic priests hateful and spititually violent. Bishop Thomas Olmsted has gone as far as suspending the last priest to keep his name on a pro-gay document called "the Phoenix Declaration", which declares that homosexuality is a state of being, not a sin. And in Indianapolis, Baptists have split, with the Southern Baptists leaving the World Baptist Alliance...tearing apart an organization comprising tens of millions of the faithful.

But what are gay's looking to wed their partners fighting for? In many cases, people opposed to same-sex marriage are supporting the idea of civil unions. These unions confer all the legal benefits of marriage on gay couples, but they don't officially call them married.

If one accepts that civil unions are the legal equals of marriages and are different in name only, then those fighting most vociferously for gay marriage are fighting for the word "marriage." Why? Do they wish to water-down the religious meaning of marriage? While some of the most radical gays might wish revenge against institutions they have traditionally viewed as oppressive, the majority of this peculiar minority are simply seeking equality in all respects...including being able to call their partners wives and husbands.

What is the solution? It's a difficult question, but the least disruptive and most feasible would be to eliminate the civil component of marriage altogether. I propose that no Justice Of The Peace be allowed to marry anyone...that they could only perform civil union ceremonies. Marriage, as such, would be reserved for religious ceremonies, only. That way, individual faiths could determine whether or not they wished to recognize same-sex unions. As it would be religious organizations deciding if gays could marry under the auspices of their organizations, any dissent would be limited and would not spill out into the general public.

In this manner, all sides win. Gays get legal equality with their married-straight counterparts and religious adherents get to limit the ise of the word "marriage." While this solution is certainly not perfect, it does contain the seeds of a solution to this thorny problem.

Comments (Page 2)
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on Jun 16, 2004
But you avoid the issue of Pedophilia... why?


It involves a person who is not an adult.
on Jun 16, 2004
yeah... so you only have a problem with that?
on Jun 16, 2004
Humanists have won the following victories in recent decades: the elimination of the God-instituted death penalty


I will only correct you once more about calling me a humanist. If you don't care to learn the differences between objectivism and generic humanists, I'll just let you continue to argue in ignorance, by yourself.

Objectivists almost universally agree that the death penalty is morally just, and absolutely that it isn't "god-given". Their objection is that it's implementation in the current state of science and justice represents too much of a risk for an innocent man to be executed. As DNA evidence becomes more prevalent, we are finding out just how many errors have been made at the cost of innocent lives. Perhaps that doesn't concern you. Perhaps these innocent people's lives need to be risked for the greater good.

from no abortion to abortion on demand (which is the indiscriminate genocide of babies);


There have been plenty of threads on here about abortion, and I once agreed with your position that fetuses are babies. They aren't babies however. It should be noted that there are some christians who also support choice. While I personally find abortion repugnant, I recognize that the actual life of the women is more important than the potential life of the fetus. For that reason, I have changed my position regarding it's legality. However, it is not genocide.

criminal rights now generally take precedence over the rights of the victim;


If you look at objectivism at all, you will find that they would deal with criminals in a very harsh manner. Punishment in proportion to the crime. There are no delusions of rehabilitation or deterence etc. The purpose of justice is to punish criminals, period.

gay rights, which are now greater than the rights of normal people;


Objectivist do not support "gay rights", the support individual rights. They do not support at all ANY theory of special group or class rights, which is indictative of collectivist thinking, something that is staunchly opposed. However, as homosexual activity does not harm others when the participants are willing, there is no reasonable basis to make it illegal, including the idea of civil unions or marriage. Rand herself thought that homosexuality was immoral, but would not support laws banning it. Objectivists are somewhat split regarding the morality of homosexuality. None the less, since "normal" is whimsically decided by whoever represents the majority, there is often no sound basis for whether "normal" is right or moral. Slavery used to "normal". Racism used to "normal". Domestic Abuse used to be "normal". The treating of women as second class citizens used to be "normal". Christian normality is a very oppressive concept. Normal means very little in terms of right and wrong.

the sexual revolution with the right to do any perverted kind of sex among consenting adults


And what's your problem with that? As long as it doesn't harm anyone else, why would you object to the kind of sex consenting adults engage in?

this has given “credibility” to such perverted groups as the North American Man-Boy Love Association,


Not with objectivists. They don't support pedophilia at all. In fact, most objectivists view as a celebration between between two consenting adults who hold each other in the highest regard based on shared values and virtues. Most of the people I see bar hopping every weekend looking for the next bunny to hump are you everyday run of the mill christians who go to church sunday to wash away the sins they CHOOSE to carry out friday and saturday night.

Children like myself are being taught that it's 'OK to be Gay'


Why isn't it?

The ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) fights for 'rights' such as flag burning,


Do you put the symbol of the flag, or the material of which it's made above the life or liberty of a human being? Are symbols worth more than freedom? Be careful not to worship a false idols, it's against your religion.

So if, with every generation, the morality of people degenerated further and further.. It's not unbelieveable, at least in my mind, for this to happen.


It's merely an opinion that morality has "degenerated". My view is that morality is starting to become more based on rationality, reason and reality. When morality has a solid foundation, not one based on whim or mysticism, it needn't change. Religion has told people for too long, don't do this or that, not for a reason, but simply because "god says so". After awhile, people look for real answers. At least smart people do. I guess that's why your told to accept your faith "as a child would". Don't question it because it doesn't hold up to reason.

Christianity is a religion (not unlike Islam) where death is the ultimate value because you are promised heaven as a reward in the, ahem, after life. Objectivism holds that life is the ultimate value, which gives a strong basis for making it worthwhile, moral and productive. Aren't you looking forward to being dead so that you can go to heaven? Don't you feel the need to sacrifice yourself for your faith, for your god and for the "greater good"?

That said, though objectivist would disagree with your practicing christianity, you would be allowed to practice your faith and snese of morality unfettered. Christianity on the other hand seeks to impose it's faith and morality on others, and throughout history it has done so in by means of some very evil and oppressive methods.

Objectivists don't wear hoods like that christian organization called the KKK.
Objectivists don't bomb abortion clinics or doctor's offices ( or anything really).
Objectivists don't start wars, or at least haven't yet, though they have no problem responding to threats or attacks.
Objectivists don't hold the color of someone's skin or the sexual preference against them, and they don't lynch them for taking land and jobs from the white man.
Objectivists don't become serial killers or mass murderers carrying out the "will of god."
Objectivist don't demoralize or destroy individuals by telling them they aren't worthy, that they should feel guilty, and that they're nothing in the eyes of a fictious being.

No, you have to be christian to do those things.

VES
on Jun 16, 2004

Objectivists don't wear hoods like that christian organization called the KKK.
Cults call themselves Christians... But, they arn't.

Objectivists don't bomb abortion clinics or doctor's offices ( or anything really). Objectivists don't become serial killers or mass murderers carrying out the "will of god."

The Severely Mentally disturbed arn't nessecarily bad (it's a disease and it's through no fault of their own), but when they are mass murderers then they arn't christians.

Objectivist don't demoralize or destroy individuals by telling them they aren't worthy, that should feel guilty, and that their nothing in the eyes of a fictious being.

That interests me because that's a staple of Humanistic movements. "Everyone is good. No one is a sinner." People need to understand they are sinners. "For all have sinned and come short of the will of God"


Christianity is a religion (not unlike Islam) where death is the ultimate value because you are promised heaven as a reward in the, ahem, after life. Objectivism holds that life is the ultimate value, which gives a strong basis for making it worthwhile, moral and productive. Aren't you looking forward to being dead so that you can go to heaven? Don't you feel the need to sacrifice yourself for your faith, for your god and for the "greater good"?


There is a difference between Islam and Christianity: Christianity is real.

Among Christians it should be regarded as a privilege to die for the true and the living God. Death through Martyrdom (not the muslim Jihad) but like numerous Christians throughout History eg. The Reign of Nero

Death however is not more important than life. Life is a gift of God. It is the duty of a country to protect life and property of individuals. However, since Roe v. Wade millions of babies have been slaughtered.

Note: Just going to Church dosen't mean you're a Christian. Just like standing in a garage dosen't mean you're a car.

Being Gay is deviant behavior.

Burning the flag is unpatriotic and disrespectful to people who died for the united states to defend freedom


Christians object to Gays because they love the person but hate the sin.

God dosen't make mistakes. People do.
on Jun 16, 2004
There is a difference between Islam and Christianity: Christianity is real.


And how do you know this?
on Jun 16, 2004
how silly. Why did you call it gay marriage when you decided to start this thread? You know why? Because what you're talking about is gay marriage hence the term gay marriage. Why would you think of messing with such a concise precise description of something? 2 gay homos get married. They're gay. They're married. Gay's are married. Gay marriage. !!???!!!
on Jun 16, 2004
yeah... so you only have a problem with that?


I fail to understand your point? The original point I was responding to which I was responding stated that beastality and ped. do not involve consenting adults. My reply was that beast..... oh never mind.
on Jun 16, 2004
Whatever a "objectivist" is? Sounds like a made up term. Is this a organization, belief or what? Or is it anyone who is atheist or agnostic?

Objectivists don't wear hoods like that christian organization called the KKK.Objectivists don't bomb abortion clinics or doctor's offices ( or anything really).Objectivists don't start wars, or at least haven't yet, though they have no problem responding to threats or attacks.Objectivists don't hold the color of someone's skin or the sexual preference against them, and they don't lynch them for taking land and jobs from the white man.Objectivists don't become serial killers or mass murderers carrying out the "will of god."Objectivist don't demoralize or destroy individuals by telling them they aren't worthy, that they should feel guilty, and that they're nothing in the eyes of a fictious being.

No, you have to be christian to do those things.


You certainly are not foolish enough to think only christians do these things..... or are you?

on Jun 16, 2004
And how do you know this?


How do you know it is not?
on Jun 16, 2004
how silly. Why did you call it gay marriage when you decided to start this thread? You know why? Because what you're talking about is gay marriage hence the term gay marriage. Why would you think of messing with such a concise precise description of something? 2 gay homos get married. They're gay. They're married. Gay's are married. Gay marriage. !!???!!!


Do we call marriage between a man and a woman a straight marriage? Or a marriage between two Black people a Black marriage?
on Jun 16, 2004
Pedophilia, BDSM, and bestiality are all private sexual acts. Gay marriage is not a sexual act. Gay marriage does not legitimize any sexual acts. It legitimizes love and committment. It should be legal for that reason only. Sinful gay sexual acts exist independently of gay marriage, and should be addressed as independent issues. It is time for Christians to take their heads out of the gutters and elevate them into the world of principle, respect, and reasonable thinking.
on Jun 16, 2004
I rather think many of you have strayed from the original thread here. My point is not to argue the legitimacy of of same-sex marriage. By definition, if such a union is recognized by a governing authority, it is legitimate within the scope of that authority. My singular point is that much would be solved if we took the word "marriage" out of the secular and placed in firmly in the realm of the parochial. If this means legislation equalizing the protections and priveledges granted in both marriage and civil unions so there is no real legal distinction, then so be it.
on Jun 16, 2004
Cults call themselves Christians... But, they arn't.


The Severely Mentally disturbed arn't nessecarily bad (it's a disease and it's through no fault of their own), but when they are mass murderers then they arn't christians.


While you continue to lump me into the Humanist category (still demonstrating you know nothing about objectivism and don't care to), you try to distance your religion from those that act under it's banner. Sorry, you can't have it both ways.

Christianity is real.


As a belief system, yes. As the truth, no.

God dosen't make mistakes.


On this we agree but for different reasons. Its impossible for something that doesn't exist to make mistakes.

I gave you a link in the other thread if you have any interest in educating yourself about the philosophy I embrace. If you don't fine, but I won't continue this discussion any further after my next post.

VES
on Jun 16, 2004
Whatever a "objectivist" is? Sounds like a made up term.


Objectivism is a descriptive title for the philosophy of Ayn Rand. All words were "made up" at some point. It's not an organization, it's a philosophy of individualism. By it's nature, people who follow it must be atheists. There are plenty of sites on the web that can give you an overview, if you have the interest to learn about it.

You certainly are not foolish enough to think only christians do these things..... or are you?


Christians represent a significant proportion of the folks who perform those acts. However you are correct in that people of other faiths and religions also do them as well with the exception of the KKK, and every abortion clinic bomber that I have ever heard of. The other part of that point was that objectivists DON'T do any of those things.

I'm done here.

VES
on Jun 16, 2004
What about good things Christians do?
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